Make It Mindful: An Education Podcast

Seth (00:00.826)
Debra Farmer Chris, welcome to the podcast.

Deborah Farmer Kris (00:03.576)
Thank you so much for having me.

Seth (00:05.532)
I am so excited for this conversation. I heard you on the mind shift podcast first and it, your work on all really resonated with me because I was like, my gosh, is that what I do? Like, that, is that, and I, and I want to get into kind of the through line that I'm thinking from my own personal work and see if it's backed up by some of the research that you know about or you've done. But I'm going to, I want to start in the same place that I'm sure all of your, if not all, most of your podcast start, which is.

Can you define offer us what is off?

Deborah Farmer Kris (00:37.912)
You know, I love starting there because I think awe is a very much misunderstood, overlooked emotion. And it is an emotion. So let's just start there. That usually when we think about human emotions, we often think about these kinds of things like happy, mad, sad, scared, excited. falls kind of under that surprised, excited, you know, range of emotions. It is this feeling we get when we encounter something that is vast.

or wondrous or somehow beyond our ordinary frame of reference. Now that doesn't need to be the Grand Canyon. That can be seeing, you know, we had an ice storm the other day here near Boston and seeing the trees in the light coated in ice. It's the whole way home. I, you know, me and my kids were like, look at that, look at that. We couldn't stop just with this wide-eyed amazement. So.

When researchers talk about this emotion, like how do know you're feeling this, right? You know if you're angry because your pulse might race and etc. They often talk about you might feel, get goosebumps, you know, the sense of the chills. Maybe your eyes fill with tears, that won't be everybody. The most common I think is this kind of almost a vocalization of the wow or woe, which they've discovered is very cross-cultural. This kind of

Seth (01:55.152)
You

Deborah Farmer Kris (01:56.286)
not really a word, but just this spontaneous vocalization. And in my work with kids, I've added a fourth one, which is not in the literature, but just from all my years of child development. And that is these wide eyes, because I know my students or my kids are feeling this sometimes when their eyes get so wide, like, my gosh, what did I just see? What did I just hear? Almost as if they're trying to take it in because it's bigger than their understanding.

Seth (02:23.536)
Hmm. Yeah. It was funny. Cause one of the questions I was writing down as I was listening to the podcast and thinking of what I was going to ask you, I was going to ask like, what is the difference between awe and whoa? And you're telling me whoa is like a, like a, um, maybe a, a, a manifestation of awe. Right. Um, and then I was also wondering what is the difference between awe and aha, which is another really important

Deborah Farmer Kris (02:40.323)
Yes.

Seth (02:49.392)
like like driving moment for educators when they see that in their students. They're like, my gosh, this is why I'm here. I'm here for this right? And I think that there's they're kind of related, but I was wondering if you could tease out the difference.

Deborah Farmer Kris (02:53.037)
Mmm.

Deborah Farmer Kris (03:04.206)
So I like that. The aha moment, right? That moment of epiphany or understanding that comes. I would group that under the form of awe, which we call, you know, the wonder of big ideas, right? It's when you encounter something that excites and delights your brain. And Dacher Keltner, who is the really one of the primary researchers behind this, talks about almost

No major scientific discoveries have happened without awe because awe drives questions. You see a rainbow and a scientist wants to know how, why does colors do that? You look up into the night sky, which is so wondrous and you wonder what is out there. Is there a super practical reason that astronomers started years ago? Did that affect the daily, daily life? Well, of course it does, our orbits and this and that, but it didn't seem to be a straight line. It's our curiosity.

that can lead to these wow and the wow can lead to the aha because if you're not curious, then you probably don't have that aha moment, right? And as we can talk about more later or now, awe and curiosity are really closely linked in an exciting way for teachers.

Seth (04:16.092)
That is where I wanted to go. when I was, when I was, so let me give you a little bit of background about my work. So we do a live virtual education for like 20 years. We've been operating cross-culturally. have live virtual field trips and we also facilitate international student collaborations. And so there's a lot of, whoa. Right. Like that's like, that's how we know or nailing it.

Right. there's there other components of it, but that's kind of like, if we don't start with that, then we're probably not going to get where we want to be. And it made me think like, is, is awe this missing component of why what we do works. And the line that I was drawing was like, awe leads to curiosity. Curiosity leads to intrinsic motivation.

You also talk about awe priming the brain for memory. So you can have that awe moment in the beginning of a teaching period. And then 30 minutes into the teaching period, you are still primed for memory in a way that you weren't, if you didn't have that experience. at the beginning. And you also talk about awe leading to a sense of connectedness. And when you're having that experience with your classmates, there's a connectedness there.

But there's also this idea that by learning about other cultures, by other cultures being the source of awe, that there could be connection to those other people that is also being, promoted by the experience itself. And I'm wondering, this is my, so this is my theory, right? My theory is that all is at the center of my work and I didn't know it until I heard you. And I'm wondering like, to what extent does the research like tease that out?

does it connect all of those dots? Sweet.

Deborah Farmer Kris (06:08.182)
Yes. So what you talk about with that line is actually in my book as a line. I actually put it out of awe to curiosity, to internal motivation. And so I'll just give you one example. They did a large scale study in high schoolers in Texas. and they were looking at those who showed curiosity toward a subject and those, and they measured in different ways, but the kids who were curious,

excelled more in that subject, which makes sense, right? Because you think about the four-year-old who becomes perhaps obsessed with the names of dinosaurs or the names of trains or the names of anything. and suddenly their other language skills may be here, but they're saying, Brachiosaurus and they're remembering things because they care. And then,

There's also concurrent research that shows that awe and curiosity are just really closely aligned. And so we know that curiosity increases achievement and academic motivation. We know that an outgrowth of that is curiosity. When you feel an awe for something, you want to know more about it. And then to continue on that, we know that curiosity does this thing of priming the brain for learning.

there is a reason why when this child is fascinated by the Hamilton lyrics, they memorize them quickly versus if they could care less about a poem they're reading in class, they're not memorizing it quickly because when you're curious, your attention muscles, your executive functions up, the things that help build from the short term to the long term memory. so, and as you noted, there has been some research

mostly at UC Berkeley here that looks at if, know, when you're curious about one thing, it seems to have a transferable effect. It primes the pump so that if I am fascinated by something at beginning of class, but then I'm doing something less interesting 30 minutes later, I've still, you know, put my brain in a position to be more receptive to learning.

Seth (08:22.522)
think that is such a guide map for teachers, right? It's like, can you, yeah. Yeah, don't bury the lead, yeah.

Deborah Farmer Kris (08:27.662)
Yeah, don't save the aha, don't save the wow for the end, like this is your treat. Like, yeah, start it at the beginning. I mean, which is why like the classes start with a mystery or something beautiful or, you know, just something to capture the attention of our students. It doesn't mean the whole class needs to be a song or a dance or a capture, but if the beginning of something can really bring them into, you know, why you love this.

Seth (08:44.153)
Yeah.

Deborah Farmer Kris (08:56.514)
why this is worth it, why this is beautiful, why this is fascinating, you're more likely than if you can prime that emotion to see these outcomes.

Seth (09:06.064)
How connected is the idea of a teacher sharing their sense of awe with students and students then experiencing that awe? And what kinds of factors contribute to that or not?

Deborah Farmer Kris (09:24.942)
So I think I did take a quick step back here and talk about some of the sources of awe super quickly, because it's going to lead to this question. So most obvious, right, be nature. We talk about music and art. But then we're talking a lot here about the wonder of big ideas. There's also something called collective effervescence, which is this feeling of belonging that is especially strong in adolescence, wanting to belong to something, so that classroom environment.

And so, and then of course there's this wonder of human kindness. We are really drawn to that. So when you have a teacher who is excited about a subject and knows a lot that wonder big ideas, who's creating an environment in the classroom where that sense of belonging is in place, where people can learn from each other and have that kind of, you know, the difference between, you know, watching a...

watching a playoff game by yourself in your room or watching it with a group of people or watching it with a stadium full of people. Each one of those can sometimes, you you're building off each other's of joy or attending a bar mitzvah or attending a wedding and feeling that collective sense, being part of a team, being part of a D &D club, being part of a choir. Then if you also have this teacher who's really kind, you know, that sense of appeal. And we know this, I taught for years and years that

they're testing so quickly, are you a safe person? And then next level, do you really like me? Are you kind, right? Like, am I safe here emotionally? And then are you an appealing person to be around because you see me? And so I think that when a teacher, I mean, there are subjects I can remember that I never would have been interested in except for the teacher, right? Like I took an anatomy class in high school that was not necessarily in my

Seth (10:50.733)
Mm. Mm.

Deborah Farmer Kris (11:13.398)
Intra Zone, I left the class and I memorized every single bone in the body, which was a challenge that wasn't even for the grade, because it was really cool to hang out with Ms. Abbott, who was so fascinated by the human body that I wanted to learn too. And then she pulled us together as a study group. And all of us were collectively around the skeletons studying these and making up songs and having this collective experience of understanding our own bodies, which is actually really powerful for a 17 year old, right? To actually be able to name.

Seth (11:25.85)
Hmm.

Seth (11:39.278)
Hmm.

Deborah Farmer Kris (11:43.247)
what's going on. And so her awe created the classroom dynamic, which helped create, you know, for someone who wasn't naturally interested in the topic, which is some of the challenge you have, right? You have a kid who thinks they're a math person or thinks they're an English person and thinks as mutually exclusive, even though everything's interdisciplinary. And we know that, but helping our, our, our awe can be contagious because sometimes it's almost just the delight that they see we're delighted.

And if we've created that environment where the collective effervescence is happening, you know, there's this great thing. Collective effervescence, of course, comes from Durkheim, In 1906, I think it was. And it's the sense of that feeling you get when you're engaged in something bigger than yourself with a group of people. And of course, it's 100 years later, neuroscientists are discovering neurosynchronicity, which is actually our brains firing in tandem.

Seth (12:12.249)
Thank

Seth (12:16.876)
Ugh.

Deborah Farmer Kris (12:41.238)
with the people we're with. And what they found in classrooms is that when the students and the teacher are in greater, you know, sync with each other, quite literally, more learning happens. And I just think that's a whole world of awe right there.

Seth (12:58.478)
Wow. God, I love this. So I love the idea that all is contagious. I've lived that so deeply. I was thinking about my daughter as you were talking and you had like two different history teachers from one year to the next. And she was like, I hate history. It's so boring. And then she had another teacher. was like, my God, I love history. And I've always talked to about her as a social learner, but that idea of collective effervescence, that, that neurosynchronicity like

That is the actual like mechanism behind why that works for her and for so many other learners. And when I hear you talk about, I, there's a lot of these things you mentioned executive functioning before briefly, there's a lot of things, these things that like, once you learn more about them, you're like, my God, that's the key to everything. Like we, everyone should be talking about this thing. And I think that there are that that

Is true when I hear your work, I hear that and there was a question posed to you on the mind shift podcast about why has it had it's like moment in the sun and especially compared to some of these other kind of lynch pin skills like grit, even curiosity, right? and, and I'm, wondering your answer there was about like, you know, we sort of, it's just not there yet. We, we, there hasn't been like the, the big kind of

Deborah Farmer Kris (14:11.848)
grit and...

Seth (14:25.046)
media moment around it. And I think that that might be part of it. But I wonder if it's deeper in that we as this like sort of Puritan work ethics society, see awe as something that happens to you, rather than as something you generate with your own hard work. And I know that you talk about like, putting yourself in the path of

awe as like a way to practice it. But you also talk about it as being like an involuntary emotion, that like really all you're doing is putting yourself in the path of it. And then it does arrive in you. And I'm wondering if that might prevent it from having greater value within our society, because it's not something that you can do. It's something that's done to you.

Deborah Farmer Kris (14:59.032)
Mm-hmm.

Deborah Farmer Kris (15:17.666)
You know, that's funny because sometimes people ask me about the difference between gratitude and awe. And I love the research on gratitude. But you know, gratitude is a bigger cognitive load than awe is. Because sometimes you're at the end of the day thinking, okay, this thing happened that I didn't like, but let me think about why I could be grateful for it. Right? And it can be reflective where awe is in the moment. It's this emotion that, and it can linger and you can have that memory.

Seth (15:38.32)
You

Deborah Farmer Kris (15:47.203)
you I go back to the romantic poets who really believe that poetry was about reliving awe and that you would capture it again in the moment in the poem so that you could keep that emotion alive. But you might be onto something there. know, grit really had its moment, right? This idea of growth mindset, right? You're plugging away at it. And I think we love control. And so the idea that this is my control,

What I like about Awe is that, I mean, it is to some extent in that it's about opening my eyes, it's about opening my ears, it's about putting myself on the path, it's about looking consciously, it's about knowing what's not bringing awe, it's about recognizing that I've been doom scrolling for so long and I'm not having any of those feelings and it doesn't mean that I'm ignoring what's happening in the world. but also at the same time, there's that ice storm outside and there's that bird there.

and they are both existing in the same world. right? And so I'm in this world with this happening and with this constant wonder, mystery and beauty. And I really feel like, you know, we gotta get out of the single narrative, right? We have this tunnel vision to recognize and to kind of prime ourselves to see this mystery and beauty and wondrous and the goodness of other people everywhere because

Yes, this has academic benefits for our kids, but this is an help. This is emotional benefits. This has civic benefits for our society. right? Because when you feel awe, there's this beautiful research that makes you feel more engaged with your community. It makes you more likely to help a stranger. I'll tell you, and I know I've said this in other podcasts, but when I talk to teenagers, the study they love the most from awe is one that came out of UC Berkeley.

Seth (17:19.248)
Hmm.

Deborah Farmer Kris (17:42.079)
And there's a grove of eucalyptus trees, old growth ones on campus. And so they had their test subject go out and either stare at the trees or to turn their body and stare at this old 1970s science building, the back of it. So it's brick, it's nondescript, not many windows. I've seen the pictures. And then after a while of gazing at one or the other, they have a stranger, one of their lab people, walk by and drop their belongings. And they'd found that those who

have been staring at the trees are more likely to help a stranger pick up their belongings than people staring at a building building, nothing beautiful, no Gothic cathedral here. building And I love telling that because I think metaphorically there is this wonderful nugget there that these people are standing in the exact same place. The air is the same temperature, right? It's where they're directing their gaze that determines whether or not they are helping a stranger or

Seth (18:16.804)
Hmm.

Seth (18:34.649)
Yeah.

Deborah Farmer Kris (18:39.374)
they're ignoring those needs. And not to beat on that too much, but I think especially with our teenagers who are living in a world where all of the bad news is hitting all the time, all of the headlines, right? Because goodness doesn't make headlines very often. ⁓ Yeah, and yet...

Seth (18:56.624)
We tried that, it doesn't sell.

Deborah Farmer Kris (19:02.646)
You know, it turns out that the most common source of awe when people keep awe journals cross culturally and they do these huge studies with thousands of people. it is actually human kindness and bravery and integrity. It's basically goodness that people are most inspired by more than nature. so that we get those goosebumps when we see somebody being kind, when we see somebody standing up, when we see somebody, you know, sticking their neck out to help a stranger. Like those are the things that give us those goosebumps.

Those are the things that make us feel that. You know yes, rage sells, but there's something very human, viscerally, instinctively appealing about seeing the other as well, about seeing the goodness. I feel like as adults, part of our moral responsibility is to make sure that our kids are seeing these stories too. And so, I'm super.

Conscious and I have been ever since I started this research I'm always honest with my kids about what's happening on the news I'm like I wrote the viral article on March 13th for PBS kids on how to talk to your kids about the coronavirus I then wrote the viral first article about how to talk to your kids about Ukraine and Russia like you know a couple of years later Like I'm one of those people that they call of how do you talk to your kids about hard stuff? I tell my kids the developmentally appropriate truth I also tell them so many stories

about people doing amazing things, including a neighbor, know, helping, know, seeing that I was struggling taking the garbage can in and stopping to help me from like huge, big national things to the people in our community. You know, like, you know, they had so many volunteers out the, and this is, this is true. had so many people when the SNAP benefits are going down, volunteering at the local food bank, they had to turn people away.

Like that my kids need to know, that's the community they live in. that, you know, so yes, SNAP benefits drying up during the shutdown was true, but so was this. They're both true and I need to trust that my kids not only can live in that complex world, but that they need us counteracting so that they can be looking forward to.

Seth (21:17.808)
Hmm. I, I find it fast. No soap box away. That's what podcasts are for. I invited you here to soap box. I, I find it really fascinating that bit about human kindness being even more awe inducing than nature. And you talked at the top about, being based on surprise. It's about like a vast wondrous mystery beyond the frame of reference.

Deborah Farmer Kris (21:19.564)
I'm on a soapbox there, sorry Seth.

Seth (21:47.543)
What is it about human kindness, which seems like it might be really at the ready, right? Like we all have examples of us being kind. So what is it about experiencing kindness from others that taps into that surprise, vast, wondrous mystery?

Deborah Farmer Kris (22:08.59)
I think part of it is we often are most aware of it when we're vulnerable, right? I think about, you know, like when my dad died, I can name you to you, the people who stepped in to support me during that time. And, you know, their kindness can still bring me to tears all these years later because, you know, my reality was here and it didn't make the grief less.

but it made me feel so supported in such practical ways during a difficult time. And I think similarly, right? You think about Mr. Rogers saying, you you look for the helpers, that when things are difficult, you'll always find people helping. And I know that gets repeated a lot, but it's really true that if we can always guide the stories to say, you know,

Yes, so there were the wildfires in California last year. My best friend from college lost her home. And so a group of us were raising money for that. And I talked to my kids about that during that. And I talked to them post that about who was opening their homes for her. was making it personal, right? And what was happening with their family and how they were coping. Because I want, I think that we get so overwhelmed by hardship.

that when we see the kindness, it's just like, catch our breath. There's a beauty when we see people choosing kindness, choosing bravery, choosing goodness, when things look and feel hard. And I think that's almost uniquely inspiring. And I think, just even a small amount, right? The person who reaches out by text to say, I know this is the anniversary of blank, I'm just checking on you.

and you recognize I'm seen, that's amazing. How did they remember, right? Did they put a reminder in their notebooks? Why would they reach out their time from this day? And then it makes me want to do that too. It makes me want to be that person who was spreading that. I think right now I saw this incredible image yesterday from Columbia, South Carolina of the peace monks that are walking. So for those listening to this podcast later, there's a group of monks who are walking from Texas to Washington, DC.

Deborah Farmer Kris (24:29.76)
and they invited crowd to walk with them. And so it's this aerial view of these peacemunks and their dog and thousands of people walking down the street, just walking. And there's something there that I don't understand it fully. I think people are watching these monks because there is that sense of mystery. Why are you walking? How does this create peace in the world? And yet I look at that image and I feel some internal peace. And that's a mystery to me, right?

Seth (24:55.664)
Hmm.

Deborah Farmer Kris (24:58.894)
But I think it also brings up that sense that, you know, perhaps one outcome of awe is the sense of small self, right? Which I really love, this intellectual humility, yeah. And I actually sometimes think that small self can be very freeing to be able to say, I cannot do everything. I cannot resolve this war or this conflict, or I can't even, you know,

Seth (25:11.918)
That was the connection I was going to make, right? Yeah.

Seth (25:18.65)
Yeah.

Deborah Farmer Kris (25:28.29)
get my siblings to get along, whatever it is. But I can do this, right? There are some small things and that remembering that I'm small can actually be a bit of a perspective reset.

Seth (25:31.247)
You

Seth (25:43.173)
Yeah. And I was, I was connecting it to like, you talked about, I think this was on mind shift. You talked about all as this ability to, because it's vast because you're being drawn into this great mystery, kind of quiets this internal chatter that you might have. so it like relaxes that part of your brain and allows you to achieve like a greater sense of like peace. And I was thinking about that on a societal level, like when you experience that human.

Deborah Farmer Kris (25:59.619)
Yeah.

Seth (26:12.368)
kindness and you bring in that awe, can quiet the chatter of like the news and all of the terrible things that are happening and just kind of remind you of this like basic unit of society, which is kindness and altruism. that's beautiful.

Deborah Farmer Kris (26:29.902)
Yeah, and the research you're talking there, a lot of that comes from Ethan Cross. He's a neuroscientist at University of Michigan. He wrote a book called Chatter. This last year, he wrote a book called Shift about emotions. That's excellent. But when I was chatting with him for this book, he told us a story about that chattering that I think makes it very understandable where he said he was in a fight with his teenage daughter about cleaning up the living room and she wasn't doing it. And then he went outside and he looked up and...

know, the stars were bright and beautiful and suddenly the fight with his daughter just didn't feel so important anymore. And it was almost just this perspective, you know, in his brain, he was like, what am I doing wrong as a parent? Like he was just, you know, obsessing the chatter in his brain and that just kind of, it zoomed him out. And that anything that zooms us out is something that is very good for quieting that cognitive noise that we have.

Seth (27:15.717)
Yeah.

Seth (27:24.046)
And you can even see that within a classroom of like that zoom out moment takes away any sort of anxieties that you had about like social things that are going on or whether or not you were going to do well on that test and like freeze your brain to do some of the like real learning. I do have a question about teenage daughters. cause I, I, I, me too, recent recently she's 13, but I hadn't this experience yesterday where we, had a family visit to the art museum. We haven't been in a long time and.

Deborah Farmer Kris (27:40.334)
I have one!

Seth (27:52.977)
We like my son has this like incredible he's nine and he's got this like incredible sense for like art and like why he likes certain paintings and what he thinks they mean and what he would do differently and like it's just it's awesome and awe inspiring like having him lead us through an art museum. My daughter could care less like she is just like I can't believe you're making me do this like like this is

This is rude of you because you know, I don't like this. Right. And so I actually like, was kind of pressed yesterday morning cause we were trying to get there by a certain time. I actually went to AI and I was like, here's the situation. Like, can I like frame this to my daughter in a way that's going to like make sense? And what it came up with was this idea that like, this isn't about her enjoying the experience. It's about kind of teaching her how to be in cultural spaces. It's about teaching her that sometimes families.

do things that are based not on individual preferences, but on like family values and also teaches her that it's like, okay, to be like bored, right? Like it's okay to navigate the world and like be bored and survive that. But I, I, I will, and what it was telling me I couldn't do was expect her to like it, but I will admit that like, there was this part of me where I was like, maybe, maybe not today, but at some point there's going to be kind of.

I guess retroactive awe and I think that's where my question is is like, like she didn't want to be there. She saw no value in it. I imagine a future where she's got a kid of her own and she's taken that kid to the art museum and she's like realizing that like there was beauty and vastness and mystery in this moment of these like two paintings that she actually did identify as ones that she liked. But does all work that way and

Did I fail as a parent yesterday? Those are my questions.

Deborah Farmer Kris (29:47.183)
No, no. My problem with art museums is different. My oldest wants to be an artist and we could go to every museum and spend it. My younger, my son, he only wants to see the Greek art or the Egyptian. Everything else is like so boring. So I had to take them separately on our museum trips sometimes. I'm like, you're going to the Monty Museum and we're going to go to the Natural History Museum and take a look at Greek pottery. I mean, I think one thing we had to be mindful is not

Seth (30:02.608)
Hehehehehe

Deborah Farmer Kris (30:15.192)
You know, what brings us awe is not necessarily what will bring our children awe. And that is okay. And I think that's a big thing. I know I tell the story in the book about how my father-in-law for years said, when you turn 50 to my husband, you'll like opera.

Seth (30:30.222)
Yeah

Deborah Farmer Kris (30:31.988)
opera, but he loves music, right? Like he has a great jazz collection, he has like a vinyl record collection. I like opera, he does not. So you know, she may or not take her kids to that one, but it may be something else. It may be that she takes them to a Broadway show, and maybe she takes them to a sculpture garden, it may be that she takes them to an arboretum, and the very fact that you're taking her somewhere that is bringing you awe means that she sees it. She sees that it brings it in you, and I'm a

big believer. And I say, so I work a lot with kind of the moms who carry a lot of the cognitive load of, you know, trying to nurture our children, that is the kids, our kids need to see us getting excited about things, even if they are not excited about what we're excited about, and vice versa. So, you know, my kids will tell, I was taking actually my daughter to a museum with a friend. And there were all these like, it was springtime, the trees were coming out in Boston, which is a huge deal for me.

I love trees, I love blossoms. And so I started being like, look at this, look at that. And she turned, she was 13 at the time, she turned to her friend without irony and said, my mother really, really just loves trees and birds. I was like, I love that you know that. Whether or not she grows up and loves birds as much as I do, I don't care. But I love that she knows that about me. And I think of the same way, it's like when she is willing to share her music with me outside of her earbuds.

Seth (31:46.064)
You

Deborah Farmer Kris (32:00.835)
Like it may not be my cup of tea, but like I love that she's finding like what excites her, you know, and so when she says she wants to go to that concert and I double check to make sure who's chaperoning and all of that stuff. I want her to have those experiences and it may not be what I would take her to. But I think these family outings, these rituals, and because here's another thing. You go to museum and at some point all of these you recognize that

there are so many people coming out to museum on a Saturday, like what do humans like about this? know, it's, there are these communal things that we seem to gravitate around, sports and museums and music. And if you go to a national park or a local park on a beautiful day, look at where people are congregating. They're congregating around sources of awe. And I think that putting our kids in that pathway, you know, like my daughter,

Seth (32:32.432)
Hmm.

Deborah Farmer Kris (32:58.712)
hates professional sports, my son loves it, but she will come to one Red Sox game with us a year because as I said, you're part of Boston. It's culturally important for you to stand up and sing Sweet Caroline. You can read a book the rest of the time. And it's OK if you never love it, but I want you to understand it's almost a perspective taking exercise. And so one game a year, she'll come with us to the Red Sox.

Seth (33:07.824)
I'd say culturally required. Yeah.

Seth (33:25.392)
Awesome. I am a good parent. Great. Thank you. right on. have a, I have a lightning round. is inspired by, by Adam grant. and, first question, recommend a piece of media. it could be, could be anything you're either, experiencing personally or professionally.

Deborah Farmer Kris (33:32.61)
Ooh, okay.

Deborah Farmer Kris (33:44.46)
Like a book or a podcast or something?

Seth (33:45.934)
Sure, buck cod, pack ass movie show.

Deborah Farmer Kris (33:48.301)
Okay, I loved the Good Whale podcast from New York Times about, yeah, it's okay. I grew up on free willy, like I was the demographic for that. And this takes you into the real story. And if you want awe and beauty, great storytelling, you'll cry, you will learn. Your inner marine biologist from when you were a child will thank you. It's a beautiful podcast. It's just six episodes.

Seth (33:51.504)
Ooh, the good whale.

Seth (34:11.28)
Awesome. I'm going do that with my kids. Thank you. I was wondering if you're going to recommend the overstory by Richard powers, which I assume you've read and loved. If you love trees.

Deborah Farmer Kris (34:21.191)
I have not. I've read so many tree books. My brother, who's a historian, has written two tree books. I have not read that one.

Seth (34:22.822)
my gosh.

Seth (34:26.896)
You have to read that. is about a group of people who each individually in their own way have profoundly beautiful relationships to trees. It's yeah, it is fantastic. I loved it. What is something that you are rethinking right now?

Deborah Farmer Kris (34:30.008)
Okay.

Deborah Farmer Kris (34:38.35)
What's going on my list?

Deborah Farmer Kris (34:46.51)
Oh, I'm always rethinking success in high school, especially now that my daughter is a freshman and the whole college admissions thing. I really think that we are setting our kids up for not thinking about success in the right way. so I don't know if it's rethinking or is that I'm always thinking about, you know, how do I keep myself out of, how do I open up opportunities for my child without falling into the trap of resume building for the sake of resume building for college?

because I just don't think that that serves our children well.

Seth (35:20.72)
And I think it's really difficult to do that in a world that is changing so quickly. And so you're not quite sure where the opportunities lie or not. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a tough, tough task. do you have any questions for me? And this doesn't need to be for me specifically. This could be like for our listeners, for like the people at large. is there something you're curious about right now?

Deborah Farmer Kris (35:26.37)
Yep. Right.

Deborah Farmer Kris (35:44.335)
I'm curious about so many things. I'm really curious about humility because I think it's, when I saw that come out as a outgrowth of awe, right, this idea of intellectual humility, it's not a sexy word. I think it's one that has a lot of kind of baggage around it. And yet I find it really appealing this idea of remembering how small we are in this world. And I think we're in such a confidence culture. And I think ours.

our media and our celebrity and our politicians, kind of project like being right, being strong, leaning in, being the boss. And I really want to, I'm wondering when humility, but thoughtfully defined, which I know has a lot around it, is gonna have its moment.

Seth (36:31.14)
Hmm. Well, it's not now. It's not right now. Definitely not. mean, what's, what's, what's kind of terrifying about that question for me is this idea of, of like how, how quickly we're going in the other direction and how I think social media has been like a large contributor to that of like, literally, gamifying and,

Deborah Farmer Kris (36:32.726)
And what do you find in your work with that? Yes, no.

Seth (37:00.144)
objectifying like social acceptance and just taking like that desire within our brain and focusing it all in on this like very ego driven personal brand driven practice. Yeah.

Deborah Farmer Kris (37:13.998)
Personal branding. And as a writer, feel, but like it's, it's exhausting. LinkedIn exhausts me.

Seth (37:21.444)
But it's also, it's also for anybody who wants to put food on their table, who doesn't have like a classic job. Like it's part of your, it's part of your practice. Right? So it is. Yeah.

Deborah Farmer Kris (37:25.486)
I

Deborah Farmer Kris (37:30.496)
100%. I have to market my book all the time, you know?

Seth (37:34.348)
Mm hmm. And so how to practice humility within that, right? Like how to have a personal brand where you're like, these are the things I'm great at. But then.

Deborah Farmer Kris (37:43.577)
And how to be the expert while also acknowledging that there's no script, right? There's no, children are not vending machines. You can't put in the right change and out will pop, and thank God. And so this idea of a parenting expert or a child development expert, both of which, that's what I've done my whole life is child development work. And yet children are the greatest mysteries, right? They're all these like humans.

Seth (37:47.855)
Yeah.

Deborah Farmer Kris (38:12.286)
in progress and they're so, I will never tire of looking at a child and trying to figure out who are you really, right? Like, and they are the greatest mystery for me and this greatest source of wonder. And as a teacher, right, trying to figure out this child in front of me, that was the source of awe. And so, you know, how to say I'm an expert, but also say, and that basically means that I'll be studying this forever and I'll probably only tap the tiniest part of it.

Seth (38:40.612)
Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, I try to think about how like humility relates to my life and it does come down to like awe and gratitude. and this like feeling that my gosh, we're lucky, right? Like my gosh, we're lucky to get this little sip and like all of the beauty and pain, like it's all the same, right? Like, like, isn't it so much greater to experience than to not

experience, right? Like this is the, this is what we're here for. We are here to like grapple with these things to, to, to grow from them, to stagnate for a while and then grow. Like it's like, it is, it is so beyond my own ability to understand that I have to feel small, right?

well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. My last question is, is where can, where can we find your work? Where would you like to send our listeners?

Deborah Farmer Kris (39:40.537)
So if you go to parenthood365.com, you can find my sub stack, my social channels, articles, everything is in there. I do have a sub stack that I update once a week called Raising Offseekers. And so that's the most dynamic place to kind of hear my regular kind of musings and thoughts.

Seth (40:00.633)
If you had to leave our listeners with like one sort of like, like short treatise, if you're on television, you had 90 seconds, which we joked about before, but like, is there like a, is there a headline here? Is there like a, if you're doing it right, just make sure you nail this one part.

Deborah Farmer Kris (40:17.742)
okay, I'm going to actually turn to poetry here because, you know, Mary Oliver talks about living your one wild and precious life, and that's what gets quoted. But do you know what she's doing for the rest of that poem, Seth? It's a poem called A Summer's Day. She is sitting in the grass staring at a grasshopper. She is paying attention to its eyes, how it moves its wings, how it moves its legs. And that's what she's doing with her one wild and precious life.

So it is not about the hustle in that poem, even though it's quoted as if like, you know, better get started, make your children's lives amazing. It's actually about slowing down and about paying attention to the things around you. And that you can do and it doesn't take money and it doesn't even take much time. It just sometimes requires going outside, taking a deep breath and just seeing what's out there, getting in the pathway of awe.

Seth (41:08.506)
Beautiful. I have more questions, but I'm going to, I'm going to end the recording now and maybe I will keep going with you. and maybe like a little bonus episode or something. have one more critical question about schools, but, thank you so much for being here.

Deborah Farmer Kris (41:22.268)
this has been great. Thanks Seth.

Seth (41:24.438)
And that's where I'll go to the, the outro. Okay. Here's the, here's the last question I have, and I think I have time for it.

Seth (41:36.611)
Some of the components of awe that you're talking about seem somewhat incompatible with schooling, right? Like there are, like you talk about mystery being a critical component, whereas a lot of what is delivered to students is like certainty. And you talk about slowing things down. You talk about having no aim. Like these are things that

Deborah Farmer Kris (41:57.815)
Mm-hmm.

Deborah Farmer Kris (42:01.678)
Huh?

Seth (42:06.32)
regardless of what research says are the incredible benefits of having all within a school setting seem like they're somewhat incompatible with a school setting. So how do, how do we reconcile those two things?

Deborah Farmer Kris (42:22.734)
It's hard and I think it's hard for teachers who care because sometimes the best teachers are those who want to slow things down and it can be hard within the system. Which goes back to what I'm rethinking. I'm always thinking about this as a parent, as someone who was in schools for 20 years. I was married, you know, I am married but he was a school administrator for many years. He's retired now. And I think that most importantly,

It's the relationship with the teachers. Like if you're stuck in a system that feels very test-driven, that doesn't mean your relationships with your children need to be test-driven. That doesn't mean your relationships with your class needs to be. And I think that teachers can be islands of awe and wonder, even in the system that doesn't necessarily support it. I also think we need to really think about our systems entirely. Like I chose to send my kids to a Montessori school pre-K to eight because

Seth (43:19.962)
my son as well,

Deborah Farmer Kris (43:21.484)
you know, the multihed class, like it makes room for all of these things. And it's funny because I made this choice before I really began to deep dive into awe. And it's just so simpatico. And with that work, and I just also think like how we're going to have to, the more we become AI driven, fundamentally rethink what's happening in our classrooms in terms of deep learning and engagement and the things that make us distinctly human in this world.

And so I keep talking to our head of school that I think Montessori is gonna have a renaissance in some ways because there's so much that's about touching and about the executive function skills of managing your own space and your own time that it can be amazing. So I think that if you're stuck in a system that doesn't feel like it's amenable to this, you can make your classroom an oasis. I've done that. I've been in those schools and I've made my classroom that oasis.

But I think on a policy level, we have to be thinking about, you know, what are the pathways that are putting our kids in touch with a little bit more meaning and even some of those skills that, you know, may become more present and valuable in a world that, you know, a lot of the stuff we're testing for now is gonna be obsolete.