Make It Mindful: An Education Podcast

In this episode of Make It Mindful, Seth talks with Rebecca Winthrop - senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and co-author of The Disengaged Teen - about the four modes of student engagement her team identified across a decade of research, and what those modes reveal about how generative AI is reshaping students' relationship to learning. Her framework, grounded in work by researcher John Marshall Reeve, finds that students who take initiative in their own learning not only feel better, they out-achieve achievers - a finding with direct implications for an era when AI can produce the proxy products that schools have long used to measure learning.

Together, Seth and Rebecca explore what it means that engagement modes are states and not traits, why self-awareness about which mode you're in may be the skill that matters most in an AI-saturated classroom, and why the resistors - not the achievers - are actually closest to explorer mode. Rebecca distinguishes cognitive stunting from cognitive bypass: the concern isn't students using AI to speed up work they can already do, but students outsourcing cognitive work they haven't yet built. She unpacks her task force's central finding - that "teach-not-tell" AI use narrows risk while "wide AI use" accelerates disengagement - and argues for a burden-of-proof model before new AI tools get scaled. And she makes the trust problem concrete: anti-plagiarism posturing turns teachers into police, ruptures relationships, and produces exactly the kind of environment that research says is worst for learning.

Guest Bio: Rebecca Winthrop
Rebecca Winthrop is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and co-director of its Center for Universal Education, where she leads research on student engagement, learning quality, and education in crisis contexts. She co-authored The Disengaged Teen based on a decade of research across thousands of students and families, and recently chaired a global task force assessing the risks and benefits of generative AI in education across multiple countries. Her work focuses on how schools can shift from high-stakes proxy assessments to learning environments that build the capacities students actually need.

About the Host:
Seth Fleischauer is the founder of Banyan Global Learning and host of Make It Mindful: An Education Podcast. Through Banyan, he designs live virtual programs that connect K-12 classrooms to global peers and expert facilitators - building the kind of structured, human-centered learning the podcast explores. See https://www.banyangloballearning.com/programs/global-cohorts